[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Carla says, well tell you what Ivan, you see this pizza man again, you're telling to come over to whatever the address was on both court.
[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_02]: She says, I'll get rid of Amy, my girlfriend can go back to her mother's house with the kids.
[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll put the plastic out and I'll take care of it myself.
[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: When it goes to court in trial, I have one shot and one opportunity to be not guilty or I go to prison in death row.
[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_03]: That's that's reality, Evan.
[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_03]: We have busted alibis, we have caught people in lies.
[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_05]: This is just insane because everybody's pointing the finger at somebody else.
[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You just don't hear every day walking into somebody's house or going to take the plastic out and pop somebody.
[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_05]: So he could get the execution date pretty much any day?
[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. There's no impediment.
[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_06]: This is Cousins By Blood.
[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Episode 6 Take the Plastic Out
[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Last episode we left off as Ivan's mom Sylvia was out to get her Mustang back.
[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And Ivan's aunt Penny was with her.
[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_06]: And I know there's a lot of vehicles to try to keep track of in this case.
[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_06]: And the Mustang isn't really important to this story, it just happened to be the reason that Sylvia and Penny were going over to Carlos' house that day.
[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Again, Carlos and Anthony were high school friends with James and they were still close in their 20s.
[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_06]: They weren't as close with Ivan but they did go to Jamaica with Ivan and Tawny earlier in the year.
[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And so there's no confusion on where this Mustang came from and why Anthony had it.
[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_06]: You'll remember in 1999 a year before the murders Ivan ran off and joined the Navy.
[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_06]: In doing so he left a brand new Mustang behind.
[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Instead of having the Mustang repossessed Anthony had taken over payments on the Mustang.
[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_06]: But the vehicle was still in Sylvia's name.
[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_06]: So last episode Ivan had just told his mom that Carlos and Anthony were likely running drugs in the Mustang.
[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_06]: And she knew that Anthony was staying at Carlos' house.
[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_06]: So this would be November 6th two days after the bodies were found.
[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Sylvia and her sister Penny knock on the door.
[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know what to expect. I really didn't.
[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I just knew, well Carlos is out of town and Anthony is deer hunting so let's see if somebody opens the door.
[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And lo and behold my sister is there with me and Anthony opens the door.
[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I said Anthony what are you doing here? You're supposed to be deer hunting.
[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Because the night before I'd gotten a call just 24 hours before I ended Carlos' in Waco
[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and Anthony is deer hunting for a couple of weeks. He's going to be out of town for a couple of weeks.
[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Carlos is going to be in Waco so why is Anthony answering the door?
[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: He says you want to come in? Yes I sure do.
[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm trying to figure out what is this about and why are they lying?
[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought I would have gone through something like that.
[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_05]: So as soon as he opens the door you're getting a little weirded out because he's not supposed to be there.
[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it gets even more bizarre because he would go into the kitchen and we'd sit down and he kind of motions like don't say anything with a finger.
[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he says Carlos is on the phone with Liza.
[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay so now Carlos opens the utility room that goes out to the garage and comes back into the kitchen and he's on a handheld phone.
[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to know what's being said.
[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And it dawns on me the fax machine is hooked up to that phone.
[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You can hear the conversation on the fax machine.
[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I walked over to the office and put the volume on.
[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_05]: And did you have the phone on speakerphone or?
[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I put it on speakerphone.
[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_05]: But did I?
[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: No.
[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And Carlos saw me and penny my sister in the kitchen table at the kitchen table.
[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So he's talking to Ivan and he's asking him.
[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I was asking Anthony for Carlos came in the kitchen and what do you know about what's going on?
[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And what happened to James?
[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He didn't volunteer anything.
[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But he does lean down to my sister's ear and tells her maybe Ivan did it.
[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_05]: You heard him say that?
[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: She told me that he told her that when he leaned down.
[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: He said did you hear what he said when he leaned down?
[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I said no.
[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_02]: He said maybe Ivan did it.
[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, okay, why is he planting that seed?
[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Here he is supposed to be deer hunting and he's planting seeds now that maybe Ivan's involved in this thing.
[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Well if I wasn't pushed back 20 miles from hearing about James' murder it was even further now Matt.
[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: My face was just, I was sinking in the mud and I couldn't get breath.
[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't come up for air.
[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And so Carlos walks into the living room and I said there's a speaker on that.
[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: That face is a speakerphone.
[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I got out of the kitchen and something made me go over there and we turned that on so we could hear what Ivan and Carlos were talking about.
[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And Carlos kept asking him the same question.
[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Now tell me again what happened.
[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And Ivan would tell him the same story he told me.
[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Which story?
[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: About the pizza man.
[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Per Batem.
[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: He didn't mess up one time.
[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: He said now tell me again what's going on.
[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And he was like waiting for Ivan to trip up on his story.
[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But there wasn't any trip up.
[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But it was the same thing.
[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, don't you hear what he's saying?
[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Why are you asking him over and over? That's what I kept thinking myself.
[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he says, Carlos says well tell you what Ivan, you see this pizza man again.
[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: You're telling him to come over to whatever the address was on both corners.
[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He says I'll get rid of Amy.
[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: My girlfriend can go back to her mother's house with the kids.
[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll put the plastic out and I'll take care of it myself.
[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going oh my God.
[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Did I just hear that?
[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Had you ever known these guys to be violent?
[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Never.
[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I had no idea that people would be like that, that Ivan might have known.
[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I know they didn't do a lot of things together but I do know that he was James' friend from school.
[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But it wasn't anything that Ivan was not close to Carlos.
[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_05]: He was not close to Carlos.
[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, they are talking on the phone.
[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's a knock at the door and it's Detective Wynne.
[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought oh thank God because I was hoping he was going to repeat the part that I'll take the plastic out and I'll take care of him while Detective Wynne was in the room.
[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And then so as Wynne shows up Carlos is already on the phone with Ivan.
[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: He's in the room across from the office, from the front office.
[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_05]: At some point is Carlos putting Ivan on speakerphone and Detective Wynne is listening in?
[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Carlos doesn't even know that we're on the speakerphone.
[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_05]: But where was Detective Wynne listening in?
[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: In the office with me and Penny and Anthony.
[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They were standing in there and then Penny picks up the phone says Ivan we believe you.
[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And just be careful driving home.
[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Quick.
[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Detective Wynne sits down at the desk and he says,
[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: What's going on here? I need to know what's going on here.
[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you mind coming down to the station with me? All of you. We talk over there.
[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_05]: So who was all of you?
[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It was Anthony, Carlos, me and Penny.
[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't even tell Detective Wynne hey I don't know anything.
[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what's going on here but you might want to get some answers from these two guys.
[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I should have told him I got to call it 8 o'clock Sunday morning telling me he had an alibi.
[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That he's in Waco with a sick uncle. I never talked to the man in my life.
[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Did you tell Detective that?
[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I didn't have no sense to do that.
[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I was so dumbfounded.
[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I hadn't even processed James's murder.
[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But well maybe you know he's going to ask me a question and I can help in some way.
[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we pull in and we go into whatever floor they were on and he puts us in the room.
[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: He says, just hang tight. He says I'll get back to you.
[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Well that was about 10 30 in the morning man.
[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: He didn't get back to us till about three or four o'clock that afternoon and we had just been sitting there all day long.
[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing to eat. I'd never been in a police station in my life.
[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know their tricks.
[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know how to get people to do things.
[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And they knew that.
[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Detective Wynne finally comes in and he sits down and he's already gotten whatever propaganda he got from Carlos and from Anthony.
[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But Ivan calls and I answer the phone and I said, Ivan I'm here with sir at Dallas PD with Detective Wynne.
[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Just let him know when you're going to be here and give him an idea.
[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And he says, yeah, sure. I'll talk to Ivan with very calm and collected when you talk to him.
[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And Detective Wynne says, well, just have a safe trip down.
[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's common when you get in.
[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was it.
[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And then they question you or take a statement from you?
[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: No, that's just it.
[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Before we leave the police woman, one of the other when female detective I guess walks up to you and says,
[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: will you please write out a statement for me?
[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what I find that because I remember telling her I can't write anything.
[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm too tired. I'm going home.
[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know anything.
[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't leave yet.
[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll write it down.
[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll type it out for you.
[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So she typed out whatever she typed out and then put it in front of me and said, let's find here.
[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And you didn't did you read it?
[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't even read it.
[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I just knew I couldn't handle any more.
[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_05]: So you and Penny left?
[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: With Carlos.
[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_05]: With Carlos?
[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because Carlos was going to ask to drive my car back just because he did think I could drive.
[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, do you want me to drive?
[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said yes.
[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's driving us back to Bo Court.
[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_02]: To the house.
[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, where's Anthony?
[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they kept Anthony.
[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Apparently Anthony got arrested that day.
[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's unclear whether he had drugs on him or he got arrested for a previous drug charge.
[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Regardless, Anthony was not able to leave the police station that day
[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_06]: and no statement from Anthony ever made it into the case file.
[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_05]: So you go back with Carlos and Penny?
[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: When Carlos is driving back home we haven't had anything to eat.
[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, Carlos, I'm starving.
[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I said pull into a Burger King or somewhere and get some hamburgers.
[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll pay for it.
[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_05]: So was Carlos saying anything else about the murders or anything?
[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm driving, yeah, not that.
[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But he says, do you know that James kept money in the house?
[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I said no.
[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you know he had a safe that was poured into the slab?
[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I said no, I don't know anything about that.
[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, yeah, he kept, he always kept 35,000 cash on him.
[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I said he never shared that with me.
[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Now he's making small talk.
[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: The last thing I'd be telling people is that I know he kept money in the house.
[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: If James had a safe in the house, he's not going to tell anybody.
[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: He was smarter than that.
[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, would have kept somebody from going over there and making him open up a safe.
[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_02]: He says we have the same insurance guy.
[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I've got Michelle insured for a million dollars and I,
[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: it's what didn't happen to me.
[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: She gets a million dollars.
[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: He's giving me more information here.
[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_02]: When he's talking about the safe, he's talking about insurance money.
[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We're driving back and we're eating our burgers.
[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We get back to the house.
[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: There's two cars there in the driveway.
[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know there's two because it was cold and it was windy at that point.
[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_02]: He says there's two.
[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: There's two cars in the driveway.
[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: He's going to take some time to do that.
[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It's cold.
[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't y'all just come back in the morning and let's just call it a day.
[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_05]: How far was that from your house?
[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: 25 miles.
[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Seems like quite a trip back to not have a couple cars.
[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't question it.
[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't push it.
[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd handle it.
[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I've had enough of that day.
[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So Sylvie and Penny go home mustang-less.
[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_06]: But the next day they go right back to Carlos' house
[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_06]: and Michelle, Carlos' wife, answers the door
[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_06]: and hands over the Mustang keys.
[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I had to come back the next day and Michelle was there.
[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: She's the one that handed me,
[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: handed Penny the keys when we knocked on the door.
[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And there was an apartment key there.
[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And why did you notice that?
[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Because Penny said,
[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Anthony's apartment keys on this set of keys.
[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_05]: So did you give Anthony back the apartment key?
[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, no. I think we took it.
[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we took the set of keys and I said let's just go.
[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know if that apartment key went to Ivan's apartment.
[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_06]: So there may be something important about these keys.
[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_06]: You'll remember from episode two in Ivan's statement
[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_06]: after Ivan's arrest and Detective Wynne was interrogating him.
[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_04]: He asked who had access to the Parish apartment
[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_04]: and I explained that while moving into the apartment
[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_04]: we borrowed the Mustang from Anthony Fonseca
[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_04]: and when we returned the car,
[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_04]: the apartment key was accidentally left on the key ring.
[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Once this occurred I continually tried to get the key back from Anthony F
[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_04]: but for one reason or another
[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_04]: we were never able to connect for me to get the key back
[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_04]: and prior to leaving for Arkansas
[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I never really thought anything about it.
[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_06]: If that was true
[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_06]: then that would mean Anthony and Carlos
[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_06]: would have access to Ivan and Amy's apartment
[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_06]: while they were out of town.
[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_06]: To my knowledge the apartment key
[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_06]: ring was never investigated to determine
[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_06]: if it did belong to Ivan and Amy's apartment.
[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Something Ivan's lawyers could have looked into
[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_06]: but they never hired an investigator for the case.
[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_06]: At this point there's no way to know for sure about the key
[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_06]: but it certainly isn't tricking
[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_06]: though Ivan didn't tell his mother about the key
[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_06]: until they met at IHOP.
[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: He gets some Dallas about midnight
[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: because he calls me about two o'clock in the morning
[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and he says my money didn't meet me at IHOP
[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_02]: over there in 183.
[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I said you got it.
[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm on my way.
[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_06]: So now it kind of all comes full circle.
[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_06]: In episode one you heard Amy's statement
[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_06]: about the IHOP meeting.
[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: He called his mom and Aunt Penny to meet us at IHOP.
[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We sat there and had coffee and pop
[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Ivan talked to them for a while.
[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_06]: That's all she said about IHOP
[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_06]: and you heard Ivan's statement
[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_06]: about the late night IHOP meeting.
[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Remember they had just gotten back into town
[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_06]: from Arkansas.
[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_06]: After stopping at Tawny's Ivan had went to his apartment
[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_06]: and found the search warrant inventory list.
[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I explained to my mom that this inventory list
[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_04]: slash search warrant looks fake.
[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I mentioned calling the homicide office
[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_04]: but they wouldn't confirm whether or not
[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_04]: they had been in the apartment.
[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_04]: My mom made the suggestion of meeting at IHOP
[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_04]: so that she could see it.
[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_04]: When we got to the IHOP restaurant
[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_04]: we noticed that several police officers
[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_04]: were eating at the restaurant.
[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_04]: We ordered a few items and I showed the list
[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_04]: to my mom and Aunt Penny.
[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_04]: We were not sure if they were fake
[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_04]: but we wouldn't know what was going on
[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_04]: until we were able to discuss the situation
[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_04]: with Detective Wynne.
[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_04]: After having a few items at the IHOP
[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_04]: my mom and I agreed to visit
[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Detective Wynne's office together in the morning.
[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_06]: And now this is what Sylvia remembers
[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_06]: about the meeting.
[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: We made it IHOP on the 183 and everything.
[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: We're the only ones in there
[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and then we're having coffee
[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and then four officers come in
[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're having coffee
[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: across the aisle from us
[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I have been sitting next to Amy
[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and Amy's leaning on Ivan's shoulder
[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: disinterested in anything that's been said.
[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: She just wants to get out
[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and go smoke a cigarette.
[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And so what time would this be?
[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Probably two o'clock in the morning
[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: three o'clock in the morning.
[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so yeah Ivan and Amy
[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_05]: had come back from Mark and Fall.
[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But if she was afraid of Ivan
[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: at that time
[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: she had a 17 year veteran
[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: from the sheriff's department
[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: as a stepdad in Arkansas
[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that she could have clung on to
[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and asked for protection
[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: if she was afraid of Ivan.
[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: She could have gotten up out of that booth
[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of going to smoke a cigarette
[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: walked right over to those police officers
[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and said, I'm afraid of this guy.
[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Did she seem afraid of him?
[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_02]: She was clinging on to him like gum
[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: on a shoe.
[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: She had her head on his shoulder
[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and she was like, she was tired
[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_02]: she was sleepy
[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: she just wanted to get out of there
[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: she was not interested in anything being said.
[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_06]: So like the party DJ and Tawny
[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_06]: this is another direct witness
[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_06]: saying that Amy sure didn't appear
[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_06]: to be afraid of Ivan
[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_06]: although when she went back to Arkansas
[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_06]: she had her stepdad Mr. Kramer
[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_06]: was scared to death of Ivan
[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_06]: and that Ivan was in a mob
[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_06]: but next Ivan tells his mom
[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_06]: what he found in the apartment
[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: He says, Mom, I went to my apartment
[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: before I come to meet you
[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_02]: there was just a mess in there
[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, there must be something wrong Ivan
[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: you left the house a mansion
[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: or you left the apartment a mansion
[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: there wouldn't even be a mess anywhere
[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_05]: So he had said
[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_05]: that I guess there was a note left
[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_05]: that they had found some items in there
[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: he did have a paper on him
[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: it was like page 14 of however many pages there was
[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: or whatever page number
[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: he only had one page that was left up there
[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: on the counter and he brought it with him
[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and there were specific items that were on that list
[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that they were going to look for
[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember him saying that he had a paper
[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: but I don't think I looked at it
[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and I didn't read it
[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I also talked to the fourth person at IHOP
[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Ivan's Aunt Penny
[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, let me ask you this
[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_06]: that night at IHOP
[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_06]: you were there with Ivan, Amy and Sylvia right?
[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes
[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_06]: What do you remember about that?
[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, Ivan wanted to
[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_03]: he wanted to know what was going on
[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and he didn't understand any of it
[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and
[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_03]: four police, three or four policemen
[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_03]: walked in, I don't know, more than two
[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_03]: and they sat behind him
[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and he didn't even flinch
[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_03]: but Amy got up
[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_03]: and she was like, well, she left
[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_03]: She went to go talk on her phone
[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_03]: or they had pay phones back then
[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_03]: but I don't remember if she was on her
[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I remember she was outside
[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_03]: and I was thinking it's really cold
[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_03]: she's out there a long time
[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, who in the world is she talking to?
[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought, wow, she's pretty tough
[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_03]: to be staying out there when it's cold that long
[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_06]: But she was definitely talking
[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_06]: with someone on the phone that you remember
[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, absolutely
[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_03]: most of the time
[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_03]: almost the entire time
[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_06]: she was smoking
[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_06]: but she didn't say anything about her being on the phone
[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_06]: which is super interesting
[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_06]: for two reasons
[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_06]: one being if we're going back to the Bonnie and Clyde scenario
[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_06]: and looking at it
[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_06]: if potentially Ivan and Amy did this together
[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_06]: you would think that Amy would be a little more concerned
[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_06]: with what Ivan was talking about
[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_06]: especially with a bunch of cops within earshot
[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Bonnie and Clyde is seeming less
[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_06]: of a likely scenario
[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_06]: But the second reason this is interesting
[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_06]: is that this is two or three in the morning
[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_06]: who was she talking to?
[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Was it metal, the speed dealer
[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_06]: because that's where they were going next
[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_06]: but you normally don't talk to dealers
[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_06]: that long on the phone
[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_06]: was she talking to someone else
[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_06]: and could it have been someone
[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_06]: involved in setting up Ivan
[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I remember the words Ivan said
[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_03]: he said he trust her with his life
[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_03]: in the moment he said those words
[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I just got sick to my stomach
[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know why I don't know his premonition
[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_06]: But you and Sylvia had your doubts about her?
[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Definitely yes
[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_06]: But so do you remember what the conversation was
[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_06]: with you and Ivan and Sylvia at the IHOP
[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_06]: what was being discussed
[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_03]: He said the police came in
[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_03]: and left a piece of paper for him
[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and I said you need to get an attorney
[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and you need to meet
[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Detective Wynn
[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_03]: because this was happening
[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And at any time when you're at IHOP
[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_06]: and there's multiple cops
[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_06]: sitting in a booth just
[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_06]: right beside or behind Ivan
[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Right behind Ivan
[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Now if he was guilty
[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_03]: he would have gotten up and left
[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_03]: everybody
[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_03]: he would have just walked out
[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_03]: He sat there the entire time
[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_03]: he didn't
[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_03]: he wasn't
[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_03]: you know scared or afraid
[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03]: or guilty of anything
[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_03]: he just wanted to know
[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_03]: why were they interested in him
[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Because he has the search warrant
[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_06]: and on the search warrant
[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_06]: he said that it was the list
[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_06]: the inventory list essentially
[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_06]: of what was found at his apartment
[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_06]: um, jeans, socks
[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: He didn't know anything about it
[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess the thing is like
[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_06]: had he really left
[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_06]: those items there
[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_06]: then you think it would be a different reaction
[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_06]: from him
[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Well he said none of that was his
[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_03]: you know whatever they found
[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, you would think that
[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_06]: had he left that there
[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_06]: and then now he has a search warrant
[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_06]: saying that the police found that there
[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_06]: he would want to get out of town
[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_06]: you know it's like you know the jigs up
[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah he wasn't going anywhere
[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_03]: because he didn't have anything to hide
[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: he was trying to find out
[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_03]: and what happened
[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what's really perplexing
[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_06]: about this case
[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_06]: if Ivan did it
[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_06]: he sure didn't act like it
[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_06]: from party hopping
[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_06]: and being seen by a dozen people
[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_06]: right after supposedly murdering
[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_06]: his cousin, his own flesh and blood
[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_06]: and his cousin's fiance
[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_06]: and changing CDs
[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_06]: in the back of James Corvette
[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_06]: and waving to his neighbor
[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_06]: at 2.30 in the morning
[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_06]: saying howdy neighbor
[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Mr Winston Saul
[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Cremor said he was calm and cool
[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and cracking jokes
[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_06]: And if Ivan really did leave all that evidence
[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_06]: laying around in the apartment
[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_06]: it's hard to imagine him
[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_06]: thinking anything other than being arrested
[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_06]: was going to happen
[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_06]: when he met with detective Wynn
[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_06]: and still
[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_06]: that was the plan
[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_05]: and then did you guys make
[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_05]: plans for the next day?
[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: we were going to meet a friend at mine
[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_02]: who is a criminal attorney
[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And we were going to go talk to Detective Wayne, but because of what happened when we
[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: meant to sit there all day long, I asked my attorney friend if he would please go with
[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: us so that get whatever procedure had to be taken out of the way and then we could
[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: just keep going.
[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: He didn't want things to go wrong because we didn't have representation.
[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know how to protect us.
[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't trust the police at that time after staying there a whole day.
[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just didn't have a, I didn't feel comfortable about that at all.
[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_05]: And then so you guys meet up to go see the lawyer that morning?
[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_05]: That would have been their eighth?
[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: We met at Ivan calls me and he says, where do you want me to meet?
[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: She said that we can go to the attorney.
[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, we'll meet me at my sister's house.
[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And little did I know when I left my house in Southwest Dallas that I had a tail on
[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: me.
[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason I know that is because when I got to Maldus house, I called my attorney
[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: friend.
[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_02]: He says, look, I know we were supposed to meet at 10 30 or 11.
[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: He says, but I've got a court or a hearing that I've got to take care of this morning.
[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We get together at four o'clock in the afternoon.
[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't want to wait for the end of the day.
[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I was just hoping to get that over with.
[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So Ivan says, well, he says, I haven't had anything to eat.
[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's go get something to eat.
[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So we go into a restaurant on Lemon Avenue and sent as we sat down, there was a guy that
[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: was seated at our table.
[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's a table next to us.
[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It looked like he hadn't bathed in a whole week with a newspaper in front of him.
[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And he wasn't ordering.
[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It just looked odd.
[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_05]: And what restaurant was it?
[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Uncle Julio's on Lemon.
[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, Ivan, where is Amy?
[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Wasn't she going to meet you with Detective Wynne?
[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I think she should be there.
[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't think he wanted to talk to her.
[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And he says, but maybe we should go take a little bit with us.
[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, well, OK, so we were going to go pick up Amy and wait for four o'clock
[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and then go see Detective Wynne with my attorney friend.
[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So now I start driving to a friend of Ivan's, Connie's apartment.
[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said that's where Amy was.
[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, OK, we'll go over there.
[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought I don't have any parking money when we get downtown.
[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I've got to have some cash on me.
[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, I need to pull into Washington Mutual.
[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And before I pulled off the tow way, I see Detective Wynne pass me on the right.
[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, Ivan, that's Detective Wynne's car.
[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That's Detective Wynne right there.
[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: No more did I pull into Washington Mutual and about 10 cars surround me at the ATM.
[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Unmarked cars and police cars.
[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_02]: 10?
[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a lot of cars.
[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_05]: So they had been following you?
[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: There's no way they could have.
[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They planned that.
[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_02]: They had it together.
[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, maybe the guy at Uncle Huyo says, you know, they're moving a lot.
[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he's trying to run.
[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody was trying to run anywhere.
[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, Ivan was driving, so I was going to have him get me $20.
[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So we need to step out of the car.
[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know what's going on.
[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: They just said, we're arresting your son.
[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't say, I didn't ask him for what.
[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I just, I was in shock.
[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_06]: So their vehicle got impounded and one of the officers drove Sylvia to her sisters.
[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I get back to my sisters and I said they took Ivan in, so I called my attorney friend.
[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So I said, well, can you go over there and monitor this to make sure it doesn't get out of hand?
[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: But I did not.
[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd seen things get out of hand just on television programs and I just didn't want anything to
[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: get out of hand with Ivan.
[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_05]: But it seems like things got out of hand, huh?
[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: They did.
[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: They did.
[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Ivan told me later on that he was slammed up against the wall when
[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I rushed him up and asked him what size pants he wore.
[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, what size pants does he wear?
[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Or did he?
[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Back then he was probably a 30, 31 or 33.
[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_05]: And do you remember what size jeans they found in the trash can?
[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they were, I thought they were 36's.
[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_05]: They were 34, 32's.
[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: 34's?
[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought, yeah, that's it.
[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought there were 34's.
[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But I thought, if there was a 34's he would have had been running around holding his pants up.
[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_05]: So you never know him to wear a 34.
[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_06]: We've been over that a few times.
[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's safe to say Ivan did not wear 34, 32's.
[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_06]: But then I asked Sylvia the big questions.
[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_05]: So when they charged Ivan with the murders and then all this is going on,
[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean what are you thinking?
[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking that they're gonna find out they made a mistake,
[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_02]: put him on trial and he's gonna come home.
[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Was there any thought in your mind that maybe Ivan could have done this?
[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: No.
[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do have strong reservations about him being set up
[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: after I got to see who Carlos was and what he said on that phone.
[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Now why do you say that?
[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: He's diabolical because of the things that he said, I'll take the plastic out.
[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Like he's done this before.
[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It was something that was very matter of fact for him.
[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You just don't hear every day walking in somebody's house or going to take the plastic out and pop somebody.
[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_05]: That stuck with you?
[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.
[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And then for Anthony tell my younger sister, maybe Ivan did it.
[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe Ivan was the taxi.
[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Why would they have set up Ivan then?
[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: To take the light off of themselves.
[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_05]: So what do you think happened after all this time?
[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a time.
[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I forgot to tell you and I'm just now at the flashback on this.
[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Sandy, evening about five or six o'clock.
[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_02]: James' father Frank asked me to meet him at the house on Gibbons where they found the bodies.
[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And I looked at the spare bedroom that was across from the office.
[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And the bed looked like somebody expected it for a month straight.
[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_06]: James' mom Gladys tells Sylvia,
[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: he says well he's been here a couple weeks and he's staying over here
[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and he comes into the house after the police let everybody in that Saturday night.
[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: He's in there and he starts getting the rent check
[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: from the duplex or the houses that James had.
[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02]: He had a couple of rent houses in Oak Cliff
[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and he's telling Gladys that he's taking over James' business.
[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: When Gladys heard him say that she doesn't know him from anything.
[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: She says who in the hell are you?
[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And then she tells him you can kick the fuck out of here.
[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Get out.
[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: She threw him out of the house.
[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Who told you this?
[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Gladys told you this?
[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Gladys.
[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: She told him to get the fuck out.
[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_05]: So this Frank who was living there for a couple weeks is telling James' mom
[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_05]: that he's taking over the business?
[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he's going to deposit the checks and he's gathering checks.
[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He's going to deposit the checks and take care of the business.
[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: He's going to take over for James.
[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_06]: I warned you in the beginning this case is complex
[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_06]: and has some real twists and turns.
[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_06]: James and Amy Kitchen had a roommate.
[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_06]: A mysterious guy moved in just three weeks before they were killed
[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_06]: and just like Carlos and Anthony, he just happened to be out of town
[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_06]: right around the time of the murders.
[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_06]: And in addition that same day, the day the bodies were found,
[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_06]: another witness heard him say.
[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_06]: They weren't killed last night.
[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_06]: They were killed today.
[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_06]: So who was this roommate and how would he know that?
[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Next time on Cousins by Blood.
[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_06]: As this case keeps heating up and reasonable doubt mounts,
[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_06]: please help spread the word and follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter
[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_06]: at Cousins by Blood podcast.
[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_06]: If you have any information about this case,
[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_06]: please email us at Cousins by Blood podcast at gmail.com.
[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Ivan Cantu's statement read by Ryan Freed.
[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Amy Betcher's statement read by Pauline Johnson.
[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Mixing and mastering by Jody Abbott.
[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you for listening and stay tuned.