Episode 48: The Final Chapter

[00:00:00] Last episode, we left off just days before Ivan's scheduled execution date of February 28th, 2024. But a few days before that was the day of the rally at Collin County Courthouse, February 22nd.

[00:00:30] Michael, my Cousins By Blood right-hand gal, picked me up from the DFW airport around 9am. The rally started at 11. We went to pick up Sylvia and Tawny, who were at a hotel in between the airport in Collin County. When we got to the room, Sylvia was on the phone with Sister Helen. And I got on the phone.

[00:00:57] Dad! Sister Helen. You heard? We just got to Sylvia's room. Ivan got a stay of execution.

[00:01:05] Jason Wood in Huntsville, one of the ministers there that I had been communicating with,

[00:01:38] he just texted me, have you heard? Ivan got a stay of execution. Wow. And did we know if it was the judge or who pulled the... I don't know any details. We'll get all the particulars of it. I'll call Gina. So we're here, getting ready to do the press conference.

[00:02:07] You gonna come to the Collin County Courthouse? Of course, yeah. We're gonna be heading there in a few minutes. And so I guess this changes a little bit of perspective, but it just goes... It changes perspective? I like the way you think. He's going to live. And then look down the road, as they get the evidence presented, I think he's gonna be a free man.

[00:02:34] He keeps saying, just bring me home. Just bring me home. So I talked to his mama, Sylvia. She said, what a birthday I'm gonna have tomorrow. So see you soon, Matt. Okay, we'll see ya. Okay, I'm gonna call Gina, see if I can get the scoop about what happened.

[00:03:05] Sylvia Taney and I piled into Michael's car, heading to the courthouse. And Death Penalty Action, an advocacy group to abolish the death penalty, we're just firing up a live stream. I'm Abe Bonowitz, and this is Charles Keith with me. Death Penalty Action, we're gonna be going live from the Collin County Courthouse where Sister Helen Princhana is talking to the media right now, and there's supposed to be a rally, and then we're gonna be doing a petition delivery,

[00:03:34] and maybe they still will. But the news that we've just learned is that there is a stay granted. I haven't seen any details about this, just my phone just started buzzing about it, which is super exciting because it was just over, just under a year ago, last April, that Charles and the rest of our crew were down there in McKinney. Death Penalty Action were also a tremendous help in 2023 for Ivan's second stay.

[00:04:03] We were still on our way in the car. Hey, Sister. Hey, Matt. I just talked to Hazelwood. You know who's on the staff there at Huntsville? I said, I need you to confirm that we gotta stay. And he said, Ivan's been taken off of Death Watch. He's not on the list to be killed on the 28th. We don't know how long it's gonna last for.

[00:04:32] We don't have any information. So we know it's official, we just don't know. What do they need this? I don't know how long. What, what, what, what? You remember Tawny. Because, uh... And that's Michael. State can come back and... Especially like last time. Yeah. If we gotta figure out, you know, what happened and then if the Court of Criminal Appeals denies it again... Oh my... So over them.

[00:05:01] Then Collin County could say, okay, here's another. But I just think that depending on what triggered it, it seems like there would have to be a hearing. And then if we get to the hearing stage, it's, uh... Should be a done deal. Collin County, I am so sick of them. I hate them. And you can always count on Tawny to tell you what she thinks.

[00:05:29] Meanwhile, their on-the-ground correspondent had joined the live stream. So this is Shabazz Watson, who's on the ground for definitely action here at the Collin County Courthouse. Fantastic news. What's happening now, my brother? I'll turn my camera and show you the community members that have come out. Members of the clergy, members of the press, members of the prison show. Look at all that media. Look at all that media.

[00:05:56] Members of the abolitionist movement. Also here with our friends out of Houston. Ms. Danny Allen, Huntsville, Ms. Gloria Rubach, Ms. Joy. These are my counterparts whenever we're at Huntsville and it's only five of us. The angels. I mean, we all drove from all over Texas just to get here to Collin County.

[00:06:24] And as soon as we get here, Sister Helen Prezone has the great news. And back in our car. How do you feel, Sylvia? I'm ecstatic. And to God be the glory. I am thankful for everybody that's put every effort into bringing this day about. And I look forward to getting a new trial.

[00:06:51] I saw a voice. She was practicing on her soft voice. So now you have to rewrite your speech. Yeah, she told me. I can't rewrite anything right now. And it was around that time we pulled into the courthouse parking lot. There was a group of about 50 people or so.

[00:07:20] And five or six news cameras. I found Sister Helen in the crowd. Sister. Hey. How are you? The man. You heard? I heard. The stays not on. Huh? What? The stays not on? Yeah, just Hazelwood. It's a mistake that they made in Huntsville.

[00:07:45] It's the guy that got another guy and they had Ivan Cantu's name on it by mistake. Ivan's on for execution. So we're going to go ahead with the press conference and do what we've always been doing. We're going to press on for justice. I said smile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me find her. We're going to hold it closer.

[00:08:04] One shot and one opportunity to be not guilty or I go to prison in death row. Mm-hmm. That's that's reality, Evan. We have busted alibis. We have caught people in lies. This is just insane because everybody's pointing the finger at somebody else.

[00:08:32] You just don't hear every day walking into somebody's house they're going to take the plastic out and pop somebody. So he could get the execution date pretty much any day? Yeah. There's no impediment. This is Cousins by Blood. Episode 48. The final chapter.

[00:08:57] About a month before the rally outside of the Collin County Courthouse, I got probably the biggest tip of this investigation. A guy I'd never heard of reached out. This guy had just found out about the podcast and said back in the day he was one of James drug dealing buddies.

[00:09:27] He knew James from school when James was working at the Taco Bell. They lost touch for a bit after high school. And caught back up during the tanning salon years. When James was running that business around 95 or 96 he figured. He said they buy drugs from each other depending on who had what at the time. And then sell to their own customers. He stayed pretty tight with James. On up until 2000.

[00:09:57] The reason he called me though. After listening to the podcast. He wanted to tell me. He had information. About Matt from the Valley. We'll remember from episode two. When talking about the pizza man. Ivan said.

[00:10:22] Three years into my investigation.

[00:10:51] And about two months before Ivan's third scheduled execution date. This was the first time. Someone ever confirmed. They knew. Of Matt from the Valley. James old buddy heard James talk about him. As one of his suppliers. Matt would bring up large shipments from South Texas.

[00:11:20] But this guy never got a look at Matt. He just knew that he was Mexican. And from the Valley. You'll remember from episode 29. The pizza man episode. There was the guy Ryan. That seems like he got a look at Matt from the Valley. He came into Ryan's rim and tire shop. I hadn't talked to Ryan in a while. I let him know about the progress. Yeah what's going with Ivan man?

[00:11:49] We were trying to keep track of him. But it doesn't look good on his part. No. He's got two weeks left. Before the execution. We're working with a bunch of other people. People to help try to bring awareness to the case. We're doing a big press conference on the 22nd in Collin County at the courthouse. We got some celebrities and sister Helen Prejean. This famous nun. Here just recently. I came across a couple more people.

[00:12:17] They didn't obviously know that guy as the pizza man. But they were familiar with Matt from the Valley. Ivan said that that guy told them his name was Matt from the Valley. But James Buddy had no idea what Matt's last name was. Or even if that was his real name. Or just what he went by. So going back to your tire shop. Nobody knew any of those dudes names other than Carlos. Man nothing I knew of. At all.

[00:12:48] Carlos and Anthony. But Anthony wasn't up there. No he wasn't. No no no. No it was just Carlos. But you were 100% that that was that box style Lincoln. You couldn't have been another. Hell yeah. No. No 100%. If it was 200% I'd be 200%. And in the person it matches. So I don't see how tough the guy. I don't see how good the guy.

[00:13:18] Here's the thing man. Yeah. They say you know give a you know if you have. Reasonable doubt. There's enough reasonable doubt man to do something. That's wrong. We made this filing that should have gotten Ivan a new trial. But the courts are just like they just say that the filing is denied. They're just like no they should have been brought up before. And this has but that had nothing to do with the pizza man guy. That that was something else that basically just Amy and Jeff Becker were. We've been able to.

[00:13:49] She lied. He retained his statement. That's enough right there. I know. And that was the last filing. We're like okay now we can prove that both of these two people lied. But one dude Teddy lied. And the court said no we're not trying to hear it. Basically like. They're trying to sell that shit out of the rug and be done with it man. Absolutely. That's what they're doing. They're trying to just kill this dude and let's just move on.

[00:14:20] How does this happen man? I mean there's gotta be something somebody could do. That there's not is there? Since James old buddy said that he was familiar with Matt from the Valley. Around James tanning salon days. Ivan gave me the name of one of James tanning salon business employees.

[00:14:48] And he said he actually started listening to the podcast about six months prior. He said he was working at the tanning salon in 96 and 97. And without me even bringing it up. He told me that Matt from the Valley guy sounded familiar to him. He said there was a Mexican guy named Matt who would pop into the tanning salon to see James. Back then he didn't have long hair though.

[00:15:14] It was short and kind of poofy like Magnum P.I. he said. And he didn't know about him being from the Valley. This tanning salon employee thought he was from Houston. He remembered joking around with Matt and calling him Matt Houston. Because in the 80's there was a TV show about a private investigator called Matt Houston. The employee said Matt was a charming kind of guy. Matt would pop into the tanning salon. And Matt and James would go out to lunch.

[00:15:44] Sometimes Matt would call up there. And he and James would talk in Spanish over the phone. That's about all he knew about him. But now that's two people that just popped up on my radar. Both saying yeah. James knew this Mexican guy who went by Matt from out of town. Neither knew his last name though. So how could I find him? Well it was a long shot.

[00:16:13] But James Buddy did have one piece of information. That possibly could lead me to Matt from the Valley. He said he thought James met Matt through somebody they all went to high school with. A guy named Amato. And Amato was supposedly Matt's cousin. My name is Carisma Rodriguez. And I am a genetic genealogist.

[00:16:50] I've helped try to build some trees out in the past for you. And a few weeks ago you reached out because you had gotten a lead from somebody that had said they thought they knew who Matt from the Valley or the pizza guy was. And that he had a relative and was possibly a cousin. So I was given that information and I tried to build a tree out to look for this Matt from the Valley for you.

[00:17:16] And he said, Charisma made a massive family tree and sent me a list of Amato's family members. It was six pages and over a hundred names. The problem was none of those names was Matt or Mateo.

[00:17:42] There was one Matthew, but he was only 27, so that wasn't our guy. Ivan estimated Matt from the Valley would have been in his mid-30s back in 2000, so around 60 today. The majority of Amato's family had lived in the Valley area, so that didn't help narrow it down either. And since the name Matt wasn't going to be of help, probably an alias anyway,

[00:18:08] I listed out every male in the family tree between ages 50 to 70, and cross-searched that list for the one thing I hoped would show up in their background report.

[00:18:36] If there was a late 80s to early 90s Lincoln registered to somebody in Amato's family tree, I'd figure that would be our guy. After the search on all those male relatives, the only one that jumped out was a cousin named Javier,

[00:19:01] whose vehicle history showed a 1988 Oldsmobile Delta 88. And you probably don't know what that looks like. I didn't either. But it looks nearly identical to a black box-style Lincoln. I dug more into Javier and found a picture. Sent a picture of Javier and the Delta 88 to Ivan.

[00:19:29] He said, that could have been the car. But Javier wasn't the pizza man. He was too short. I'd hit another brick wall. So when we hit our brick wall of, okay, I'm pretty sure we've tried to go down every route we can go, I had found while researching a tree that had kept coming up, a public tree with a relative, at least it looked like a relative,

[00:19:59] to that family line that we were researching. So I reached out to you and said, hey, I have an idea. It might be crazy, but can I reach out to this guy and ask him a few questions and hope that maybe he knows about a Matt in his family line. And you said, let's go for it. So I reached out to him. And within a few hours of him reading my message, he responded and said,

[00:20:28] well, I know one Matt or Mateo in my family. Here's some information about him. And gave me his father's name. And from there, I started building that tree. He fits in, but he's not actually related to your lead, but he is through marriage. So I built the tree all crazy, started sending you messages.

[00:20:54] You started researching and we're pretty sure we found him. Once Charisma gave me his name, Mateo Gonzalez, and his birth date, I pulled up his background report. Mateo was his real name, but Matt was a known alias.

[00:21:21] Mateo had multiple drug charges, including a 1997 charge for possession of between 50 and 2,000 pounds of marijuana. He had multiple addresses over the years in Mission, Texas. That's smack dab in the valley. And I looked down through his vehicle history and registered to Mateo Gonzalez. Mateo was a 1989 Lincoln Town Car. Bam.

[00:21:51] Found him. Charisma found two pictures of Mateo. One older looks to be about 60. Another that looks to be about 40. And in both pictures, he was wearing glasses. When I answer the door, he comes bucked. I'm rushing in. And his hair's kind of pulled back in a ponytail. And he's wearing dark black rimmed glasses. The sketch Ivan worked with an artist to create a couple years ago

[00:22:21] is spot on. There's a link in our show notes. I texted those two pictures of Mateo to James Salon employee. Texted back. Wow. That's him. But it wasn't all coming up roses because... It turns out that Matt died. Yes, he died. We did get that information. The two pictures of Mateo were from his obituary page.

[00:22:51] He died in March of 2022 at the age of 62. We have a copy now of his obituary, which doesn't shine any more light on the situation. We just know that he died and he died recently. So we aren't able to speak with him per se. The next day... I spoke with our family historian this morning. He said he was a football player. So those pictures from the newspaper are definitely him. They went to two different high schools.

[00:23:22] And that he did live in Dallas at some point, which we know. He could have had possibly shoulder length hair and that he definitely flipped it back for a while. That he was about 5'9". And I said, okay, so we found the record and that he was arrested for some drug possession. And he said, yeah, he was pretty shady for a while. But he said nearing the end of his life, he had turned things around, but then he got sick and he passed.

[00:23:49] And so now we've got 14 days left. He had a wife who's still alive. He gave me her name and said, we may want to reach out to her because she may know more. She did know more. And she confirmed Mateo went by Matt. But I'll call him Mateo since that's his real name. Here's the backstory. The history between Mateo and James.

[00:24:20] Mateo lived in Dallas from the late 80s to mid 90s before returning to South Texas, the Valley area. And she felt like Mateo and James knew each other for at least 10 years prior to James' murder. That would put James at 17 and Mateo 29 when they linked up. I'd have to figure James and Mateo met through a motto.

[00:24:49] Mateo would supply James with marijuana to sell. She said, Mateo kind of took James under his wing and showed him the ropes of the drug business. I ran down a list of names I'd come across during this investigation. But none sounded familiar to the ex. She said she had nothing to do with Mateo's drug business. She just knew about James because of how tight he and Mateo were. She had met James and Amy Kitchen many times, she said.

[00:25:21] It was around 2006 that Mateo went to prison for selling marijuana. And that's when they basically went their separate ways. Based on her information and the information from the others, this is how Ivan's attorneys wrote it up and filed as part of Ivan's second subsequent writ. Ivan Cantu has always maintained that on the evening of November 2, 2000, two days before authorities discovered

[00:25:51] that James Mosqueda, a drug dealer who dealt in large quantities, and his fiancée, Amy Kitchen, had been shot to death in their home, one of Mr. Mosqueda's drug suppliers came to Mr. Cantu's apartment and threatened both Mr. Cantu and Mr. Mosqueda. Mr. Cantu said the man, who was unknown to him, was named Matt. He was from the Valley, he was in the drug business with Mr. Mosqueda, and he drove a boxy Lincoln town car.

[00:26:22] Mr. Cantu relayed his account to friends, family, and the police before he was arrested. The lead DPD detective acknowledged, under the trial court's incredulous questioning, that DPD made no effort to investigate the connection between Mr. Mosqueda's drug trafficking and his death. Likewise, Mr. Cantu's trial counsel failed to conduct any independent investigation into the case.

[00:26:49] New evidence confirms Matt's existence. Matt lived in the Valley. He owned a boxy Lincoln town car. He matched the physical description given by Mr. Cantu. He dealt in large quantities of drugs, including in the Dallas area. Even though Mr. Cantu's counsel were aware that Mr. Mosqueda was a big-time drug dealer who dealt in large quantities, they failed to investigate their client's account

[00:27:18] of being threatened by Mr. Mosqueda's drug world associate. Had they investigated, they could have substantiated their client's story and exposed the deceit of the prosecution's witness. An adequate investigation would have transformed Mr. Cantu's account from an allegedly absurd cover-up to a credible description of an encounter with one of Mr. Mosqueda's drug suppliers. This court should evaluate the harm

[00:27:46] from the absence of this critical defense evidence in light of other recently revealed evidence discrediting the prosecution's star witnesses, Amy and Jeff Fetcher. The totality of the newly discovered evidence eviscerates the prosecution's case and substantiates Mr. Cantu's account of events, thus undermining confidence in the judgment for which Mr. Cantu faces imminent execution. So Mateo's ex-wife shared information that helped Ivan's case,

[00:28:15] but she also gave me information that did not jive. First off, she said Mateo loved James and would never hurt him. She also said Mateo wasn't up in the Dallas area around the time of James and Amy's murders. She said he had been down in the valley. Did he make a quick trip up that she didn't know about or thought he went somewhere else? I don't know. But the major sticking point is,

[00:28:44] while she confirmed Mateo had that 1989 Lincoln Town Car, she said it was not black. She said it was like a gold champagne. And I've run countless searches on that vehicle, and I've never found one that listed the color. So I don't know if Mateo was the pizza man or not. It seems reasonable to hit the pause button on this execution

[00:29:12] and allow time for this new information to be fully investigated. But based on this new information, one thing would seem to be certain. If this random drug-dealing buddy knew about Matt from the Valley, you would certainly think that James' closest friends, Carlos, Anthony, and Chris Head, would have known Matt from the Valley. So why didn't they speak up

[00:29:39] when Ivan identified him as the pizza man? Anthony and Chris didn't testify at trial. But you'll remember, Carlos did. Carlos Gonzalez, who disparaged Mr. Cantu's account at trial, knew Matt Gonzalez and that he drove a Lincoln. Prior to November 2, 2000,

[00:30:08] Mr. Cantu did not know Matt Gonzalez or that one of James Mosqueda's big drug suppliers was a man named Matt from the Valley. He did not know what Matt looked like or that he drove a Lincoln. Yet Ivan gave an accurate physical description, the correct name, and correctly identified the type of car he owned. This evidence corroborates Mr. Cantu's account

[00:30:36] and demonstrates that Carlos Gonzalez, Mr. Mosqueda's partner in the drug trade, knew that Mr. Cantu was describing one of his friends from the Valley. The prosecution presented Carlos Gonzalez in large part to discredit Mr. Cantu's account of being threatened by a drug dealer with whom Mr. Mosqueda was doing business. Carlos described the story as absurd.

[00:31:04] But as Mr. Mosqueda's partner in the drug business, he undoubtedly knew that Matt was supplying drugs to their operation. The only credible alternative theory at trial was that Mr. Mosqueda and Ms. Kitchen were killed by someone in the drug business. Had the jury known that Mr. Cantu had accurately identified one of Mr. Mosqueda's drug suppliers as the threatening figure coming after them, there is a reasonable likelihood

[00:31:32] that it could have affected the outcome. Mr. Cantu is entitled to merits review of his claim because the factual basis was not previously available to him. Witnesses have emerged for the first time that connect James Mosqueda to Mateo Matt Gonzalez. For the reasons stated above, Mr. Cantu praised that this court, one, find that the requirements of Section 5

[00:32:00] of Article 11.71 of the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure have been satisfied. Two, issue an order remanding the case to the convicting court for an evidentiary hearing for the purpose of examining the merits of these claims and three, grant any other relief that law or justice requires. Respectfully submitted, Gina Bunn.

[00:32:27] That was filed on February 20th, 2024, and two days later puts us back at the rally, six days until Ivan's execution date. It's not true. It's not true. He doesn't have to stay. So we're going to report that this is going on as planned. That was the rally coordinator. She worked with a group called Move On, who were doing an amazing job organizing and amplifying the message. Okay.

[00:32:55] I think it was a rumor and it was a mistake. Oh, man. Oh, man. We just got an update. What's the update? That it may have just been a rumor that Ivan got to stay. Oh, no. The mistaken identity of a guy in another jurisdiction. That's shattering. Shattering. Tough news, tough news,

[00:33:24] but these folks didn't come out here to quit. Folks have held hope for this entire time, and so hope will remain. I'm now going to hand it over to Sister Helisrajan, leading at the source of this campaign. I'm in spiritual counsel. She came to the podium. When you have the two key witnesses for the state, Amy Becher and Jeff Becher,

[00:33:52] Amy's testimony has been completely discredited, and Jeff, her brother, waited until she died, and he came out in 2022 and said, I lied. Sister Helen was dialed in. She knew the case front and back, and she laid it all out on those courthouse steps, but we'll just skim through these rally speeches. The audio isn't the best, and there will be a link in the show notes so that you can watch the whole thing in entirety, if you'd like.

[00:34:20] Up next, we will hear from Ivan's attorney, Peter Bond. We have claims pending in multiple courts right now. We've had courts that are willing to apply procedural rules to avoid looking at these claims on the merits. We have this pending, and we are continuing to work on Ivan's attorney. And I'm hopeful that the courts, a court will do the right thing and give Ivan his day in court.

[00:34:50] That's what we have at hand. Next up, the jury foreman. My position with this, with the county or the state, take that document that I gave you with my secretary on it. The verdict that sentenced Ivan to death. I put it away for a while. Check this thing out. And let's see what it is. Later.

[00:35:18] Next, we have Matt Duff, the creator of the Cousins by Blood podcast, which launched an immense public outcry for an investigation into Ivan's case. The DNA in the case, you know, the state's argument, and Amy Boettcher, the state star witness, she said that Ivan came back with bloody jeans and socks. But the state can't find Ivan's DNA on the bloody jeans and socks. If that came out at trial,

[00:35:47] that's a game over right there. There's two witnesses that testified the other way, that said Ivan did it. And both of those two witnesses, their testimony's been disproven. The brother testified that Ivan was planning the murder, that Ivan showed him the murder weapon, Ivan showed him the bullets, and that after the murder, that Ivan bragged about it over the phone.

[00:36:18] That's how serious his testimony was. But now Collin County will say, well, that testimony wouldn't have affected anything anyway. You know, the jurors wouldn't have found that compelling. Well, the jury foreman drove over three hours to get here today. The jury foreman finds that information compelling.

[00:36:53] So they have all this information, you know, and it's just sad. It is sad that we are out here today with what, six days left? You know, that's sad, but it is invigorating. Because the last time when Ivan was facing the same kind of deal, his execution date, there weren't that many cameras out here, and there weren't that many people out there. But now there are. Now there are a lot more cameras, and now there are a lot more people. Because people are catching on,

[00:37:22] and people know. Now we are going to have Michael Frazier, who works on the Cousins Black Editing podcast. My name is Michael. I stalked Matt long enough for him to allow me to start helping him on Ivan's case whenever I started listening to the podcast. I just want to thank you all for being here on behalf of Ivan. Man, if he could see this.

[00:37:52] I do want to give a special shout out to Tammy Cantu, Ivan's late wife. If it weren't for you, none of us would be here today praying for another stay for Ivan. Tammy passed away in June of 2023 from natural causes. You are the one that started all of this and helped get Gina Bunn on board, who has been Ivan's steadfast attorney

[00:38:21] all of these years. Tammy's daughter, Danielle. Danielle wants you to know thank you for still moving mountains for Ivan. Without Tammy, this rally would have never happened because the podcast would have never happened. She was my first point of contact, my first interview. It's because of Tammy and her diligence over the years that we all know about Ivan's case today. There will also be a link

[00:38:51] in the show notes for Ivan's eulogy he wrote to Tammy. Sylvia read the eulogy at Tammy's funeral. And here is Sylvia behind the podium at the rally. I believe that the only reason that things are being dragged out in this courtroom, in this courthouse is they're running out the clock on an innocent man

[00:39:21] who do not want to hear his newly discovered evidence in an evidentiary hearing. My son should have never been locked up. He's now served 23 years in a metal box. I'm here to speak up for him. He deserves to have a fair trial. I hold nothing against the mosquitoes other than love and I pray that they can forgive and move forward and accept the truth

[00:39:50] that has been uncovered. Thank you for the means. We're here today to ask Collin County District Attorney Greg Willis to request that he delay Ivan's execution. Over 100,000 people have demanded this of the District Attorney.

[00:40:21] Over 100,000 people. A reporter from CNN was in the crowd. I texted you the hotel. Yeah. Okay, yeah. We'll head over there pretty much right after this. He actually went to grade school with Ivan. He had just interviewed Ivan in prison a few days ago and I was meeting him for an interview right after the rally. Do you need a little time to set up? Most of it we've kind of pre-set up. Do you have your laptop? Yeah. Cool. I was just thinking there's like some stuff here. File, I'll walk you

[00:40:51] through a couple things. When do you think this will hit? It's supposed to air tomorrow night in Anderson Cooper's show. And the BBC were there doing a documentary. Hey Matt, are you all right? Uh-huh. Crazy morning. Very crazy. Are you okay to pop that book back on? I'd like to have a brief. Sure. Testing. One, two, three, four. And the media blitz had begun.

[00:41:23] Kim Kardashian had shown support for Ivan on her social media. Ivan was on Telemundo. I did not. The answer to that lies within looking at the evidence. You do that you'll clearly know that I did not commit this crime. They decided that I wasn't deemed worthy for a life sentence and decided to schedule me for execution. Sylvia was on Univision. The next thing I know

[00:41:52] I'm brought into the courtroom and Ivan has been charged with capital murder and I don't know what it was that brought that conclusion and how something could go so wrong. The Young Turks did a segment. Haven't been in favor of the death penalty for a long time. Why? Easy to understand. We were going to execute 200 innocent people. It's one thing to kill a guy

[00:42:21] who did it. Like, oh my God, he murdered some kids or something. It's another thing to kill people who didn't do it. And so, in this case, we have significant doubt. First of all, that should be the end of the question. On a localized, individual basis, who would kill someone where some of the witnesses recanted their testimony and said, I was lying? Are you nuts? Why would we kill that guy? And Sister Helen and Martin Sheen were on MSN's

[00:42:50] Morning Joe. Texas death row inmate Ivan Cantu is scheduled to be executed on Wednesday for a crime he says he did not commit. In the years since his conviction, lawyers, private investigators, and a podcast producer, all claim they have found evidence that discredits testimony from a key witness in the trial. No court has agreed to analyze the new information. Joining us now, anti-death penalty advocate, Sister Helen Prejean.

[00:43:20] She's the author of the book Dead Man Walking. Also with us, award-winning actor Martin Sheen. Off the screen, Sheen is known for his outspoken advocacy for those on death row. Sister, Ivan is scheduled to be put to death on February the 28th. It's really not very long away. This is a race against time and I wonder how he's doing. When you speak to him, how is he holding up? Well, Ivan is a man. He has tremendous executive agency, thinks of ideas,

[00:43:50] is created, probably has a photographic memory. So he's participating very actively and thinking of everything he can to try to get the truth out. And Martin, what can you do? You bring your name recognition, bring your celebrity to a case like this. Can you get to Governor Abbott? Can you make people listen, do you think? Well, if he's listening right now, I would just say for anyone who believes in the death penalty, we are called

[00:44:20] to look life square in the eye and frankly choose death. Why is it so difficult to reach out and prevent when you have the power to do so the killing of what is clearly an innocent man at this point? You know, a stay would be critical right now to review the new evidence and possibly exonerate him. So we're very anxious to get a stay. He's not going anywhere. We can't understand

[00:44:50] an act of compassion as being withheld on a man's life. And on February 25th, with three days left, I got this email. Hi, I wanted to know if you found the ring that was missing. If not, I believe I know where it is. Amy was like a little sister, but I just found out there is a date

[00:45:20] for the 28th. I was interested to get your email this morning. What all can you tell me? Well, actually, are you that gentleman that tried to reach me a few years back after Amy died? Yes. I found Nettie a few years back through phone records from Ivan and Amy's apartment phone. She was Amy's closest friend from back home.

[00:45:49] And when Amy was in Dallas, she was talking with her a lot. But she refused to talk to me back then. Apparently because... I was having a really hard time back then and my husband told me not to be involved. I couldn't think twice about it. I was online just today and I ran across information about Ivan. His death girl thing was in it. It kind of bothered me so I thought more about it and then I saw a post right next

[00:46:18] to it about a ring and that's when a lot came back and I'm like, oh my God, I need to tell what I know because I don't want an innocent man to go down. I don't know if you knew this but Amy called me. I talked to Amy a lot. Amy was like a sister to me. I took care of her. I loved her with all my heart and I was in communication

[00:46:48] with her a lot and when she went down to text she was not happy. I supported her and then when she met Ivan she wanted me to meet him so I would talk to her on the phone while he was there. There was something about that relationship that was not set with me so Amy would have me talk to him on the phone so I talked to him for about a half hour with her and when he had her back the phone I told her that something wasn't right and she went

[00:47:17] I was like I don't know something's not right I said run she was like I said I could feel it there's something not right hon I don't know what to tell you but there's something not right and I didn't know at the time what it was I just did not feel right so anyway so a couple days and by I still haven't heard of her and that's when she called me and told me what happened well the ring from my from what she told me that ring do you want me to tell what she told me or do you want me to tell

[00:47:47] you where she told me the ring was both okay well when she explained to me everything that was going on I like you said I know Amy very well and I always knew there was some she wasn't telling me everything there was and I would press it but she wouldn't finally she did tell me where the ring was she said that when she got to Arkansas the second time after he went to Arkansas

[00:48:17] she said she buried the ring in the backyard of her parents house in Arkansas that's what I was told and she did say that her stepdad he said that he helped her that he knew where the ring was that he's one yeah

[00:48:46] she said that he buried it that he helped I don't know if that helped or you already know that information no I've never heard that before so she said that her stepdad helped her bury the ring so he should know where it was buried exactly at the Arkansas home in the backyard

[00:49:16] she always stuck to that story why her stories changed the lyrics but that one she stuck with but there's so much that I didn't realize I knew and then I started listening to that podcast today I was starting to just read and I was like oh my God some things are and then I was reading articles and stuff and a lot of stuff was coming back and about the gunshot and the whole she did tell me that he did pull a gun on her she did tell

[00:49:46] me that that the gun was pulled and then she told me that when he came home and they argued he forced her to leave go to the house and when she went in there he made her he took the ring off her off the dead woman and then she said that he made her search the house for money and drugs and then he forced her and kidnapped her and they were on the road for weeks or like a week or something and I

[00:50:17] I know Amy I knew a lot of that was bullshit I mean I don't want to I love her and I'm so sad that things happened the way they did for her I'm just being honest I believe that there's more that she was more involved and I don't want to admit that but there's a man's life and I believe that he should not be executed because there's more to the story but did she ever tell you I mean what else did she

[00:50:47] tell you what makes you doubt that Ivan did it if she was telling you those certain things some of the things she was saying didn't make sense about going back to the house and who got people and her searching for stuff and you I know Amy and that just so you're telling me that she was able to walk into an apartment with two dead people

[00:51:17] and take jewelry off of them and search and then go no you're missing something something's missing basically I believe that she was more involved than she claimed she was and I think that it fucked with her and I think that's why she turned out the way she did with the drugs and the alcohol she couldn't face what she did I don't know what she did or how much involved but when she went to Texas

[00:51:46] and she met him everything changed and when she came back she wasn't Amy anymore Amy was gone she is very close to her brother and she would do anything for her brother she protected him like crazy and he was down there and I know him too and when he came back and then she came back and they were hanging out something wasn't right they had a fucking secret

[00:52:15] and I do know that they lied that I knew I knew that lied about what about their involvement because I knew because she said something about it years later she said something that she felt bad because they lied that's what she said I said who lied she goes we lied we lied and I said who lied and she said I just don't forget it I'm just saying because she was high and she

[00:52:44] was like we lied she goes but I was scared that's what she said I was scared I was terrified so we lied that's all she said she was lying about or what happened she just said that whole situation and that she felt bad because she lied but she felt like she had to what she said and I said what did she lie about she was not important she

[00:53:16] never said why she lied or what she was lying about she just said she but she said she felt bad because she lied I know that it was associated with Ivan and because we're on that topic when she said that and that's when I pushed her and said what did you say what did you lie about because

[00:53:51] it I really honestly don't know if Ivan had anything to do with I don't even know if he was in that building but I do know that she

[00:54:25] well tell you what the best thing you can do right now is just listen to the podcast and see what else sparks your memory and actually what I'll also do is I can send you a copy of Amy's statement so you can read exactly what she told the police and if there's anything you know that strikes you odd or maybe she told you something else that would be helpful

[00:54:56] we have literally three days his attorneys have already made their last filing but that being said if we're able to have another major piece you know there's still time there's still time and while I was working to get to the truth with Nettie sister Helen had been trying to connect with Terry Boettcher Amy's mom so she called me back you know

[00:55:26] I just said to her Terry really glad to meet you I just appreciate you've been through a lot as a mother and I'm going to be with Ivan if he's executed and we're just trying to get the truth out to see if we can save his life and she says I don't know about a lot of the details I've been praying for Ivan that's been a refrain through the conversation I'm praying for Ivan

[00:55:57] she said I don't know what went on I get what you're saying that you don't know a lot of the details of it you did your best as a mother and we got to turn it over we going to do all we can to save Ivan I'm going to try to get to talk to him because we don't want him to have to handle because he's already said I don't want to see

[00:56:27] Ivan die and it could really mess him up for the rest of his life we don't want him to be responsible for this so I want you to know I'm trying to get to him trying to call him so that's how we left off hey man how you doing I'm good man how you been oh not bad how's

[00:57:04] so this so she just started seeing articles about the podcast and saw that Ivan is about to get executed in three days from now and she said she remembers Amy telling her that she buried the ring somewhere on your property in Arkansas and and from what Amy told this netty that you knew where the location

[00:57:34] was is that a possibility that's the first time I heard that no I would have turned it in yeah that's what I was thinking too but yeah so you never heard anything about Amy saying she buried anything out there no was there one spot maybe in particular that Amy would hang out are you still here

[00:58:05] is there one area that she would hang out at that you could think might because I might can get out there and see what we can find boy I don't know where it would be you just have a I will I'll circle back with

[00:58:35] you about that and if we find anything else but yeah I'm in Livingston near the prison for the next couple days pretty much counting things down but hopefully some information will come about in the next couple days seems like even that story Amy told Nettie was

[00:59:16] when they were gone somebody else showed up to the apartment while the other people were gone I'm almost positive

[00:59:32] she said someone's here I gotta go how sure are you things were coming back but not fast enough nothing I could use nothing

[01:00:01] I could prove in two days Nettie remembered about Amy's time working at that strip club in Dallas baby dolls she said for treatment because I'm sleeping with somebody managers

[01:00:36] do you remember his name no I don't I don't remember if she ever told me the name but she was sleeping with somebody from there that worked there and P.I. Prejean pulled it off what no one else could she got him on the phone so I'm asking Jeff Betcher what made you decide to tell these lies at trial did any of the prosecutors talk to you did

[01:01:06] if we knew what prosecution was up to in working with you on this false statement that they knew to be false because maybe that could help save Ivan if we could get it he wouldn't go there at all but I knew he was really he was tormented by what had

[01:01:35] happened and kept saying I hate to see Ivan die yeah and I understood that but there you go with two days left the courts had made their ruling this court affirmed applicants conviction and sentence on direct appeal and denied relief on his initial post conviction application for a writ

[01:02:05] of habeas corpus in 2006 the court also dismissed the claims raised in applicants first subsequent application for a writ of habeas corpus in 2023 applicants instant post conviction application for a writ of habeas corpus was filed in the trial court on February 20th 2024 in

[01:02:37] his application the applicant alleges that the state presented false and misleading testimony through witness Carlos Gonzalez claim one and that his trial counsel provided ineffective assistance of counsel for a number of reasons claim two we have reviewed the application and find that applicant has failed to show that he satisfies the requirements procedurally barred again of article 11

[01:03:06] 071 section 5 accordingly we dismiss the application as an abuse of the writ without reviewing the merits of the claims raised and they even say without reviewing the merits of the claims raised that that's what really gets you we deny applicants motion to stay his execution they refuse to look at this on the merits two

[01:03:38] days from now at this very hour a man will likely be taking his last steps eating his last meal before he is executed his lawyers asked for a delay after new evidence surfaced in the case but just a short time ago the Texas parole board recommended the request be denied leaving Cantu's fate in the hands of governor Greg Abbott now this comes as the head of the jury that decided Cantu should die is asking Abbott for that delay in an op-ed Jeff

[01:04:08] Calhoun writes in part simply put we the jurors did not hear the truth you assume you would hear from a person under oath bottom line I jury foreman stepping up in prime time for more on this story I want to bring in Jeff Calhoun he was the head of the jury that recommended that Cantu should die for this case Jeff you are now

[01:04:38] backing a delay for Cantu you you say you have been fooled you regret your vote in favor of an execution why is that well the reason I say I have been fooled is because what you just showed earlier one of the key witnesses admittedly lied and when something like that happens in something to this magnitude in a situation where this may be one of the most important decisions I will have ever made and that's why it led me

[01:05:08] to go ahead and carry out and be a voice in this situation because I don't feel like we got a complete trial presented to us now that I look back on the new evidence Governor Greg Abbott is now the decider here it's not just you as you said there are other voices including celebrities my voice hopefully coming from one of his supporters perhaps will be heard and maybe he'll have an opportunity

[01:05:37] to see and hear what I have to say and really don't see any issue with postponing an execution to look through this new stuff do you think a new trial is possible do you think that clemency is necessary given the doubts what do you want to see I'm no lawyer I don't know the processes but I do believe the next would be a hearing first postpone the execution

[01:06:07] have a hearing look at the evidence and if it warrants a new trial then that's what should be done it it was February 27th now one day before I went to visit Ivan in the Polunsky unit if Ivan did get executed the following day this would be the last time I'd ever see him a month or so prior to this

[01:06:37] I had asked him just to be prepared if he wanted me that burned into my brain but if he wanted me to be there I would he said he knew some of James and Amy's family would be there and whoever else but he didn't want his mom or relatives or friends to

[01:07:28] the jury foreman was just on the national news and with the case we got if I can't get a stay anyone else in here who's been wrongfully convicted they've got no shot that's

[01:08:07] how tomorrow in the early morning they would transport him to the Huntsville unit that's where the execution chamber is and it was set for 6pm I asked him if he thought he was going to get the stay before he got to Huntsville tomorrow or if he got to stay there

[01:08:40] he said Matt if we're going to win the Oscar for best picture I think I gotta get in the van we both smiled and laughed in agreement if Ivan did get a stay and got a new trial he would be walking out a free man I don't know if we'd win the Oscar but they'd definitely make a movie about him and that van ride would be

[01:09:10] pretty dramatic I wish you could but you can't record those visits and every time Ivan was recorded for an interview the interviewer kind of jumped around Ivan always said he just wanted his own time just to talk and just lay it all out so about a week prior Ivan recorded this the floor was his my name is Ivan Cantu I sit on Texas death row I've been here for

[01:09:40] 24 years I was wrongfully convicted by a Collin County courtroom in October of

[01:10:16] I the wrong information from the lead detective a case was built around me even then when I explained everything that I knew about my case and my situation what needed to be done to successfully challenge the case in the courtroom my information and my plea for help fell on deaf ears I had a court appointed attorney who did not hire an investigator who was not willing

[01:10:46] to hear me out or help me even through the course of the trial we determined that two binders were not turned over of discovery and the witnesses lied and of course when I told my attorneys this they didn't believe me but today today we know that we have been able to discredit the

[01:11:17] to allowed to include that into her statement and we believe that that nudge was provided by him so even before the opening statement was given by the prosecution they knew that it was a fraudulent case and after my conviction upon getting to Texas death row when I met with my first attorney her name was Jan Henfield and when I explained everything to Jan as to what we needed to do to successfully discredit the state's case

[01:11:47] she mentioned to me that it was overwhelming for her and that she was an old lady it was just too much for her to handle so in October 2003 Jan Henfield went to my judge Judge Sandoval in Collin County he knew that Jan Henfield could not properly represent me and he forced her to stay on my case and in doing so she did not have

[01:12:16] the mental capacity she did not have the resources or was not today the court of criminal appeals in Austin is saying that I'm barred because the information that we're able to share was not in my first appeal and they're holding me

[01:12:46] responsible and it's not fair and it's wrong and the nation needs to know what's going on here in the state of Texas even with Collin County the jury foreman along with other members of the jury have come forward and they surely would not have sentenced me to death I have a wonderful attorney one of the best in the country her name is Gina

[01:13:35] what's required by the court and we have met that burden but yet the Court of Criminal Appeals in Austin is saying I'm barred because everything that we have to discredit the state's case the prosecution and the witnesses what's not in my state habeas is what's holding me back and that mechanism needs to be changed I want the nation to know that I did not commit murder I did not kill James Mosqueda Amy Kitchen and we have the evidence to prove it I'm

[01:14:05] not asking for anything special I'm just asking for what I'm entitled to you give me a fair shot in a courtroom without being procedurally barred with the attorney that I have today and that's all I'm asking for is a fair shot and we will continue to be able to discredit

[01:14:36] the and by 2024 a few days before his scheduled execution if it did go down thank you for calling car in funeral home hello hello hey I didn't know if that was recording yeah I just wanted to

[01:15:14] 2016 but I didn't really start working on it until 2019 at that point I had just been dumped by a long-term girlfriend I was on the tail end of a TV producing career in LA I had just turned 40 I was single alone

[01:15:43] living in a crappy apartment career unknown and at that time in my life I never told Ivan this because I wanted him to have confidence in me but I really needed Ivan in this case just as much as he needed me I was lost and it was days after my 40th birthday could hardly

[01:16:13] get out of bed feeling sorry for myself that I Gladys has that Rolex I'm surprised Sylvie didn't tell you that Gladys had the watch that's why I text you I thought well maybe he already knows who has the Rolex watch why would Amy say Ivan threw it out the window when they never had it no I never heard the Rolex was still around

[01:16:43] huh and pretty much after that I had a plan I was going to be a private investigator I didn't know how this investigation or podcast was going to go but I was going to give it my all I around the first season I met a gal in Baton Rouge

[01:17:13] by the second season we got married and moved to North Carolina and by the third season we had a son I say that all to say throughout that whole crazy journey in my life Ivan has been there he was writing letters to my son before he was even born we become intertwined in each other's lives at very critical stages and

[01:17:44] there was no more critical day than today Ivan scheduled execution day February 28th sister Helen and Martin Sheen were back on morning Joe here in what could be the final hours of Kentu's life what is your message to the state of Texas and particularly to the governor because

[01:18:14] the main witness against Ivan did not recant until 2022 that late in the game and he admitted I lied and he was the main witness who claimed Ivan had a motive who bragged about the murder after then he gets up and he says I lied everything was dependent on his testimony but it came so late and then the appeals court shut the door on you say you should have filed it sooner

[01:18:43] so he's caught in that so my appeal is to the people of Texas the killing of Ivan Cantu if it happens is being done in your name and governor is a safety valve in this he has the last vestige of the divine right of kings he has the power of life of life of life or death to at least grant a reprieve a stay no court has seen all the new evidence just give enough time for

[01:19:13] courts to take a look at the new evidence and see if the new trial is really justified that afternoon I had gotten a call from Jason Flom who I had spoken to before Jason is an advocate for the wrongfully convicted and he had Dr. Phil on the phone Dr. Phil wanted to help any way he could and he said he had an in line to Governor Abbott I got with an attorney that was

[01:19:43] assisting Gina who suggested we ask for a 30 day reprieve to have this new evidence reviewed it wasn't clemency it follow up with a phone call when he had an answer he let me know

[01:20:13] by this time in the afternoon Ivan was in the van heading to Huntsville it was about an hour drive Gina was on her way to Huntsville to meet with Ivan which was looking more and more like it be the last time a few hours later I got the call back from Dr. Phil he said he didn't talk directly to Governor Abbott he talked to one

[01:21:17] and everyone crouched around even Governor Edric can't do anything he can't still call he can yeah and you know Matt's not going to reach in the hill but as of right now we don't know whether he's been receptive or not we won't know at five they're going to pull this phone from you okay

[01:21:58] okay Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, like Tawny would say, suck it up, Mother Cup. You're going to be home. You're coming home. It may be eight minutes till.

[01:22:26] It may be, you know, 11th hour, Ivan. But I believe we're going to get a miracle. Okay. Well, Sister Helen. And I believe it's the Supreme Court that's going to help you. Well, she's here, but she's not with me, but she's here. She doesn't have access to her phone, so. Yeah, they didn't let her take it in. Well, I realize that. Okay. So do you, Mike, or Matt have access to Cospro, to be in touch with him, to see where we stand on that?

[01:22:55] I don't have a number. I have access to Helen's phone. She's got, uh, Sherry's got Sister Helen's phone. She can get Cospro. Right. What do you want to ask him? No, I don't want to ask him. I've got four minutes on this phone. Oh, okay. I'll run you. I believe this is for your piece. Okay. So that y'all, so that y'all can be in communication with Cospro. Okay. To know if something's still in play or not. Oh, okay. Right. That's good. Yeah. I love you, Mom.

[01:23:25] Man, brother, I love you. It's Zeus, Adrian, and everybody. We love you, too. We love you. Thank you guys so much. Thank you for all your, I mean, support. Um, I never thought that, um, I never, I never, ever, ever thought this thing would be here. But, um, it is. And, um, I just don't know what to say. I can't, I can't believe it. And, um, it's just, it's wrong. It's wrong. It's wrong, dude. It's wrong. It's wrong.

[01:23:54] I have Matt stay on top of Jason's. And, um, in the building. Exactly. I got, we got another hour, Matt. We got another hour. Yep. Yeah. I got another hour. Yep.

[01:24:24] I'm on it. I love you. Thank you for being a wonderful mom. Sister Helen is going to, um, take the rosary back home with her. We've got coverage and discuss that with her. Everybody loves you, honey.

[01:24:53] Don't you give up yet, okay? Matt's on it. And we're gonna get a hold of that Supreme Court guy. Okay. All right? Okay. That's fine, honey. Mom? Yes? Stay strong. Oh, yeah. I'm always with you, okay? I know. Right.

[01:25:24] Right. I know that you're a Sequoia. You may go through the fire, but you're gonna come up. I know. Do what you can, okay? I will.

[01:25:50] I sat down in the hospitality house and tried one more time.

[01:25:55] I'm not available right now, but please leave your name, phone number, and a brief message. Thank you.

[01:26:26] At the tone, please record your message. When you have finished recording, you may hang up or press one for more options. Hey, Terry. It's Matt. I've met us about less than an hour left. But his life can still be saved. I just need that information from Jeff. We plead with him. We've got 50, we've got 49 minutes.

[01:26:56] Just please talk to him and tell him nothing he tells me can get him in trouble. I swear, the statute of limitations is 10 years. It's been 23 years. He cannot get in trouble for anything. All he can do is help. And he can just help save Bob his life. And I know he's had a rough life, but I think this would help him move forward because he's been holding on to this.

[01:27:27] So please, Terry, just pass this along to Jeff. And literally, all he needs to do is talk to him for five minutes. And it could save Ivan's life. And he's already said that he doesn't want Ivan to die. So all he has to do is talk to me, Terry. Please. I beg you. Thank you.

[01:27:55] I walked outside, standing in the parking lot. I saw Ivan yesterday. Did you tell him the things that I told you, that what Amy told me? Mm-hmm. But I do know she lied on stand. That I know. And that whole Carlos thing and all that, I really honestly are starting to believe that I think all of us started when she was working at Babydose.

[01:28:23] I think there's a connection there. I really honestly do because she's getting her drugs there. She was sleeping with somebody there. And then not too long after that, she met Ivan. And then they moved really fucking fast. Yeah. To be perfect, yeah. I'm starting to push that, all that involvement that I thought she had, I'm starting to believe that I think you guys are correct. I think he was set up and I think Amy set him up.

[01:28:50] And I think Carlos or whoever she was working with and sleeping with and getting her drugs from that place, I think that's where I'll start it. I could be wrong, but that's just where my brain keeps going with all the information I have and what I've read and what I remember about my friends. But there's not, but there's not like a certain piece. No, no. She never totally came clean. But I know my friend.

[01:29:20] He was involved. There was more to it. But I don't think a man should be executed without a period of time. Yeah, well he's about to be executed in 40 minutes. I know. I'm almost thought that Amy and Carlos didn't know each other and I think he was the one she was sleeping with, but I don't know for sure.

[01:29:53] But you don't know for sure. I know she, all I know is she was sleeping with a man of here because I remember her telling me that. But I don't remember if she ever told me the name. I can't remember. Did she ever describe him? I do know it was a Latino because she told me and she described him. He was tall. Oh, so you do know he's Latino.

[01:30:23] Yeah, she told me. I remember that she met Ivan. I thought from Baby Dolls or she knew of him from being in there because I remember that. That she was introduced by someone. Holy shit! It just dawned on me.

[01:30:50] She was introduced to Ivan by the guy that she was sleeping with. I remember that now. She told me that because I asked her about Ivan. Introduced to him by the guy she was sleeping with. I can't remember his name. Oh my God! I just fucking remembered that. I got killed.

[01:32:06] Was he ever scared? He was, he was, he set him anxious. When I walked in, they already had him strapped. You know, I said, how are you? He said, anxious. I said, well, I mean, gee, you got reason to be anxious. But you're poised for flight, Ivan. You're going to be. And he was. He was incredibly composed as he talked to the family. He knew exactly what he wanted to say. And I think he's the most together person.

[01:32:35] I can't even compare him to anybody really. And I was whispering in his ear, just praying with him and just saying, are we going to carry on? And has he ever used that image? Or maybe it was Sylvia who used the image of the sequoia seed that only sprouts or blooms with fire. Have you ever heard that? Yeah, she, she said that to him. And that's the only time you can hear him kind of get emotional.

[01:33:05] Well, that was, that was the image I prayed with him. You know, Jesus had talked about the grain of wheat has to fall to the ground. And I prayed. And as the sequoia seed is set on fire and then sprouts into life. Hello, Sylvia. Would you tell me the butterfly story?

[01:33:33] We went to the memorial. We had the memorial for Ivan. The basket was there on one of the chairs that had, that held all the butterflies. One of the gals that came to the memorial that brought it with her, Ivan had talked to her about me loving a place in Branson. It has, it's called the butterfly place. And she thought that that would be a lovely thing for her to do. Just to send him a basket of butterflies. We finished up the memorial for Ivan.

[01:34:03] And so I said, we'll, we'll go outside and we'll release them outside. And I opened up the little netting that was around the basket. And all the butterflies started flying out. One of them landed on the palm of my hand. And, uh, I looked at that little butterfly. And it was just so beautiful and so delicate.

[01:34:29] And I put it up, uh, lift my hand over to my blouse, the front of my blouse. And I just gently sat him on my blouse where he could walk upon my blouse. And the little butterfly stayed with me out there in the breeze. He didn't go anywhere. He didn't fly off. That little butterfly stayed on me when I got into the car. We drove to a restaurant to have lunch. And a lot of people were going to gather there.

[01:34:59] Got out of the car and walked up to the restaurant. And he was still on my blouse. Everybody's gathered around. And my little butterfly is still on me. He's crawling around my blouse. Crawling up around my collar. Coming back to the front of my blouse. And they couldn't believe it. They couldn't believe that little butterfly was still on me. And they said, is that the same butterfly? And I said, yeah, that's the same butterfly. Walking to the apartment. And on the kitchen table. I sat a little paper sack up there. He was still on it.

[01:35:29] And I opened up a slice of a tangerine. And where the nectar could be seeping out of it. And he could have some. And I saw the little tongue, the little curl, open up and come out like a straw. And he started drinking from that nectarine. The nectar. The juice. So here's a little butterfly drinking nectar. And so I just leave him there on top of the table.

[01:35:58] And this thing I know, he'd flown down to the floor. And he's walking around. And he's walking around. I have a little plastic lid that I had the tangerine on. So I laid it there next to him. And I put a Kleenex down there so he would have that to grab onto. So a floor. A vinyl floor. And I go to bed. Wake up the next morning. Little butterfly still there.

[01:36:27] He was right in the same spot that I left him that night. He didn't fly up to the windows or anything. And I thought, okay, well, let's get some more nectar. And I opened up another little slice of tangerine. I took him outside to have breakfast. And he's on the blades of the grass at this time. And I've got the plate right there with, or the lid, with the tangerine on it. And he starts drinking.

[01:36:58] So I left him there to have breakfast. It was a little breezy outside. And I come back out. A little butterfly had flown off. Ivan's no longer trapped in that metal box. He's finally free. And the mystery remains. I mean, what happened to the rain? That's, you know, one of those weird...

[01:37:29] Well, no one's going to come to my house and to my bedroom. I'm just laying there in my shorts. Probably wouldn't have been Ivan's size. And multiple people said that. And you also said that Ivan wouldn't have probably worn Arizona brand jeans. Probably not. I don't know. Saying that I was there, that he asked me to go help and stuff. And I wasn't there for him to ask me to go and help and stuff. I wasn't. Yeah, he never asked me.

[01:37:59] I lied. I just need to know about one night. And I just told you, I don't think we're going to be... Somebody reached out and my wife has no idea what they're talking about. What if you were able to talk to the stadium and say, Hey, can you pull these seats up this day? And him go, yeah. Pulls it up and look who's there. Carlos eating a hot dog.

[01:38:28] For me looking at the pictures, to me I'm like, Well, you're just going to lay on the bed and say, come shoot me? How would that happen? I built the tree all crazy. Started sending you messages. You started researching and we're pretty sure we found them. You heard him say, where's the car keys? Where's the money? Uh-huh.

[01:38:50] He told me that he had pay off cops, that it was in his first rodeo, that it was a mafia hit. But I know that Ivan did not leave the weapon at my house. She did. She was there all day by herself at my apartment. How would that possibly get in my apartment? Her?

[01:39:19] When guys can prove they're innocent, they're still executed. So it's not always about justice here, especially in this state. It's about revenge. And they don't want to, the state doesn't want to accept the truth that wrongful convictions occur all the time. Even across the country, well over a hundred guys have been exonerated from death row. You know, some because of DNA evidence, some because of wrong eyewitness testimony, and some because of, you know, the real killer just came forward and admitted to the crime in those cases.

[01:39:49] So after a hundred times, at what point, at what point, what number does society or even the states or the government need to see to realize there's a problem? Right now we're at over a hundred. Do they need to see two hundred? Do they need to see three hundred? What is that number of wrongful convictions that they need to see to end all this craziness?

[01:40:07] All these issues with our justice system, the procedural bar, how many more wrongful executions will we stand for?

[01:40:39] What can stop it? Let's change things. Keep this podcast in your RSS feed. And if there are any more answers in Ivan's case, you'll get the updates.

[01:40:57] If you want extra content or just want to support my work, for only $3, there's over 50 hours of extra video and audio on patreon.com slash cousins by blood. Join for a month or two. I'd greatly appreciate it. Ivan, we miss you.

[01:41:25] Mixing and Mastering by Jody Abbott. Thank you for listening. I'm Matt Duff.